Five Root Causes of Chronic Fatigue with Dr. Jenny Tufenkian

Did you know that chronic fatigue or long COVID could very well be linked to a virus encountered in childhood? A viral illness experienced as a child can go dormant and remain living in the cells of the body. When exposed to trauma and stress, such as menopause, the virus can be reactivated. 

In this episode, Mary talks with Dr. Jenny Tufenkian, a licensed Naturopathic Physician with 20 years of experience. Listeners will gain insights that will open their eyes to the intricacies of menopausal health and chronic fatigue. 

Dr. Tufenkian specializes in helping health-conscious professionals tackle long COVID and Chronic Fatigue/Myalgic Encephalitis (ME/CFS fatigue), fueled by her personal journey with chronic fatigue. She developed a transformative system that identifies the five root causes of Chronic Fatigue/ME, empowering individuals to regain their energy and vitality. Her holistic approach combines functional medicine with subconscious work, promoting significant improvements in physical and energetic well-being. She is a graduate of the National University of Natural Medicine, where she earned her medical degree and completed her residency.

The conversation begins with Dr. Tufenkian sharing her personal journey with chronic fatigue and long COVID, explaining the intertwining of physical, emotional, and spiritual health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the body's signals and addressing the five root causes of chronic fatigue and health issues.

Dr. Tufenkian also underscores that, no matter what your body is going through, including menopause, there is a way to decode its messages and find the next best steps for healing. 

• Learn more about Dr. Jenny Tufenkian at https://drjennytufenkian.com/. Take her quiz to help uncover the root causes of your fatigue.
• Connect with Dr. Tufenkian on Instagram at: https://www.instagram.com/dr.jennytufenkian/, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrJennyTufenkian, and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-tufenkian/

Transcript

Jenny Tukenkian: No matter what your body is going through, there is a way for you to begin to understand and decode what it is saying to you and understand what the next best step is for you to take. And it can feel overwhelming when you hear this long list. And I want you to understand that even if for people who have all five root causes, there's going to be a root under the root, there's going to be one of those that if you address that first, it's going to start having cascading impact on the other root causes. 

The key is beginning to understand which of the first root causes you need to address first.

 Welcome to All Things Menopausal. My name is Mary, and I'm a menopause doula. I created this podcast, to build community for women going through the menopause transition and to foster resilience through the stories that connect, educate, and empower.

Mary Lee: These stories are real, raw, relatable, And very much relevant to the physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual whole person that we are. In our midlife transition, we are not alone. Each week, you will hear from courageous, vulnerable, and knowledgeable guests sharing their passion, their journey, and lived experience.

These are little clues to finding solutions to our unique situation. The menopause symptoms are personal, but the experience is universal.

 Welcome back, today's episode. It is packed full of so much information, I sat down with Dr. Jenny Tufenkian. a natural path doctor who lives in Portland, Oregon, her journey into natural medicine and the approach that she takes to fighting chronic fatigue and addressing long COVID is remarkable because it began in her early childhood and the experiences that she had through her own battles with fatigue and long COVID.

And what she has uncovered. from a functional medicine perspective is quite remarkable. 

Dr. Jenny really gets into this intricate relationship that we all need to understand between the adrenals thyroid and ovarian function and what happens when the ovaries.

Shift that function as we go through menopause And then we talk about the importance of navigating our four pillars. of good health, nutrition, movement, stress reduction, sleep management. And then the fifth that Jenny emphasizes, and I can't agree with her more, connection.

Connection to ourself connection to our community, our friends, our family and the people who make us feel good. So that we can get back to who we're always meant to be as the mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual whole person we are. I am particularly drawn to how this conversation is a real intersection between science and spirituality.

 But before we get into this, here's something you need to know about Dr. Jennie. Dr. Jennie Tufenkian is a licensed naturopathic physicianWith two decades of experience specializing in empowering health conscious professionals to conquer long COVID and ME CFS fatigue. Her personal battle with chronic fatigue inspired her to uncover its root causes, leading to the creation of the transformative system that addresses the five core root causes of chronic fatigue.

Combining a thorough functional medical approach and deep conscious work, her methods facilitate significant shifts in both physical and energetic well being.

She believes in emphasizing holistic healing processes that integrates the physical, mental, emotional, and energetic dimensions. of the body and its inherent ability to be vital and to heal. Dr. Jenny earned her medical degree and completed her residency at the National University of Natural Medicine.

She's also a mom happily married and loves her time outdoors and in the kitchenYou can find Dr. Jenny at her website, drjennytufenkian.com. Take her interesting quiz and you might learn a little about your health and what root causes might be holding you back from living a vibrant and energetic life. 

Welcome, Dr. Jenny. I am thrilled to have you here because I had done a mini episode, a solo episode on the topic of menopause and long COVID because I was going through a long, COVID bout,Your specialty addresses long COVID. It's into chronic fatigue, the lots of medical terms that I had to practice before we hit record. I'll just let you use them. So happy to have you here. Dr. Jenny. Welcome. 

Jenny Tukenkian: Thank you so much. It is an absolute pleasure to be here with you. I'm very excited for this conversation we're going to have today.

Oh, me too. 

Mary Lee: I just want to dive right into it. Let's talk about what motivated you first and foremost to pursue naturopathic medicine and how, as you're training shaped your approach to treating, of all things, chronic fatigue.

Jenny Tukenkian: My desire to become a naturopathic physician in hindsight of 2020 makes perfect sense. but my desire to be a physician was really there as a child.

I would play with my dolls and go out in the woods and pick dandelion greens. And. Strip them open and make bandages for my dolls. And my escape fantasy when I was eight years old was to run away to Colorado and learn how to live in the woods and use medicine use herbs as medicine. I have no idea where this fantasy came from, but it came from somewhere.

And that was my escape fantasy. In sixth grade, I was reading Linus Pauling's work on vitamin C and was proselytizing the health benefits of vitamin C handing out a hundred milligram tablets. And I was making my own food in sixth grade. This is in the seventies when everybody's eating Cheetos and bologna.

I was coming to school with whole wheat, whole bread that I'd made myself. Hunks of cheese, raw mushrooms, raw peppers. And I was literally a freak. And you start putting all these things together. And I also was the everybody's counselor starting in grade school. The boys didn't want to date me.

They wanted to date, the other girls, but I was everybody's counselor for everything. And in high school, I held counseling sessions in the cemetery. So if somebody's grandpa died or some, somebody got in a car accident. We met in the cemetery and climbed a tree and we would talk. 

When I put all those things together, naturopathic medicine makes so much sense because we get to address the whole person.

We get to address that physical body and learn what are the health foundations that bring the body back into balance. We When we eat right, when we sleep, when we move, when we breathe, the body knows how to go back into balance. And this is what we studied. When I, when we look at the mental emotional body, we know you and I both know how important this is in terms of our health, the emotional body has massive impact on the physical body.

Literally when we're feeling afraid or an anger, that sense of different. Impact to the outside of our cells, which impacts the DNA inside. And so literally how we're feeling can impact our physical health and vice versa. Our physical health can impact our emotional health. And then we do have an energy body and this is not woo woo.

This is actually just understanding a physics model of medicine. This is something that we can study and we can see and we can measure that there's this physical energetic body. And when we become more and more aware of this, I think we really begin to really. Massively shift our health to a whole new level.

So naturopathic medicine. I actually was trying to do other careers in law and education and had an epiphany when I was six months pregnant with my child that I wanted to become a doctor and I didn't feel like I was smart enough because I got a C in high school biology on a test that I didn't even study for.

And so I went back to school with him, with my baby and started doing pre med and started full time and became a naturopathic physician in 2000.I have worked with people, physicians who were first MDs and then they went to naturopathic school with us. I really think that whatever that first philosophy is that impacts you when you are in that, those prime years of getting your core education, really have a huge impact.

And we had the most amazing philosophy of naturopathic medicine teacher, his name was Jared Zeff. And he told incredible stories of working with people with cancer, with chronic disease, with with patients that the regular medical system just didn't have any answers for anymore. And being able to ease their experience of their illness.

To be able for some of them had miraculous healings for others. It was just that they had a more comfortable healing. They still died, but still they were able to heal. And there's just this whole philosophy that we were taught that had a huge impact on me. And I really, really experienced the power of the natural medicine.

I was actually very sick my first year of medical school. This isn't a story I've shared very much, but I had severe impetigo, which is a staph infection on the skin. And it went somewhat systemic on me in the sense that I didn't go septic, but I was extremely ill with fevers every day and had huge lymph glands.

And I had gums that were like a half inch deep and I was used as a specimen for all the students to study. And my three year old son had the same thing. And I was concerned he might need a spinal tap because he was so sick. And We use natural medicine in this process of healing, and I'm not giving this as advice to anybody who's very sick.

I was very well supported by extremely educated doctors and was well monitored in the decisions I made were really smart ones. 

But that said, it really allowed me to understand how powerful it can be when you let the body actually go through its process of healing, how it can regenerate and you can come back to 100 percent health and feel much better.

So the This process has been something that I've lived, the naturopathic medicine has been something I've lived over and over again. And in terms of chronic fatigue and long COVID, it shows me. I ended up getting chronic fatigue my second year of medical school when I was trying to have a second child and had a series of miscarriages and ended up having a 17 week miscarriage where I hemorrhaged and this threw me into a dark night of the soul where I've talked about in lots of other places.

And I, I'm not going to go into the deep details here, but just to say that I feel like. It was an awakening for me in the sense that I went into this very hard place where I had to let the world turn without me. I could no longer be there for everybody else. I had to just be there. And it was a big soul awakening for me.

And I really moved into much more spiritual energetic being at that time. And those few months were very powerful. I was stuck in bed. I had to be walked to the bathroom. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep. I was suicidally depressed. I had severe anxiety. And there was a large hormonal component to this, of course, because I was 17 weeks pregnant and all of a sudden I wasn't.

So it was postpartum. Along with massive amount of grief, I had lost five other people close to me that year, and I'd been under immense stress because I was in medical school with a three year old. I mean, by then he was five, but I, I'd been in medical school for years with a child. And so there was a lot that made that a perfect setup for me to go through that.

I was blessed to have healers come to me. I had all of my teachers were coming by my bedside and administering to me. My my colleagues at school were coming and feeding my family and taking care of my child. I was very blessed and it was very, Beautiful time to learn how to receive. And I feel like a lot of us struggle with receiving.

And a lot of us very successful doers are used to holding it for everyone else. And this is a, it was a time for me where I had no choice, but to learn how to receive. And that was a big lesson for me as a young 30 year old, 

I ended up. Coming out of that and somebody slapped the label on me, I was able to move from bed to the couch once I did a bunch of subconscious work, I moved out of the anxiety and the depression, but I still had lingering fatigue.

And that became the beginning of my journey of uncovering what is what we call called then chronic fatigue syndrome, we now call it myalgic encephalitis. And it is. The same thing as long COVID. They all have different things. We can dive into that. But that, that began my journey of how it was to understand how to unpack that. 

Yeah, 

Mary Lee: So fascinating. I could take this in so many different directions from talking about our energetic body to the spiritual whole person who we are and how we can just tap in internally Because the body's designed to heal. Absolutely. I love how you frame it though. Just give it its time to go through the full cycle.

The direction I do want to go in though is the, here we go. I'm going to make my stab at this medical term, myalgic encephalo, 

 Okay. and they said it's very much the same as long COVID, but different. Now that we've gone through our COVID era and suffered the virus, what has now science and the medical field distinguish between long COVID and 

Jenny Tukenkian: Let me just back up and say chronic fatigue syndrome is the name that the United States medical system has used for the syndrome where you have deep, lasting fatigue, where we're not able to find other answers for it. It was something that the is one of those invisible illnesses. People look great.

Their lab normals, lab values are normal. Doctors can't find answers for them. Many people felt ignored. They were told they were faking it by friends and family, by physicians told to drink more coffee. All these things still happen. Unfortunately told to go, go to the psych ward, get some antidepressants.

The rest of the world has called this condition ME or myalgic encephalitis or myalgic encephalitis. It depends. There's a couple of different ways that people pronounce it. Myalgic encephalitis means that there's inflammation in the muscles and in the brain. We now have technology.

People go in and do PET scans. And they put, when you put dye in somebody who has the symptoms of myalgic encephalitis and they do a PET scan and when they compare these to age and socioeconomic controls, we can see that indeed there is this incredible inflammation. I know you talk about inflammation other places, incredible inflammation in the brain and in the body.

This is what is happening. There's a chronic inflammatory cycle that's happening with people. And that's why this term myalgic encephalitis is now being brought back into the United States and the medical system is trying to switch it over. You often see it CFS slash ME or ME slash CFS.

It's a lot of words, but that's what's happening. We're trying to shift the nomenclature. 

Long COVID syndrome is some of the medical researchers see it as being the same thing. thing and others see it as being different. I generally say it is the same thing. The only thing that I can say is having had both myalgic encephalitis and then it, I got long COVID as well.

It, it just has its own slight flavor. And there is because of the particular uniqueness of the COVID virus itself. It tends to, in some people, express slightly differently than other forms of myalgic encephalitis. The truth is that myalgic encephalitis and long COVID are, they show up differently in different people.

What was going on in your body before you got that thing has a big, huge influence in how your symptoms are going to show up. And it also means that whatever treatment you need is going to be unique to you. Part of the reason that People, conventional medicine has such a challenge with these conditions is that not everyone is the same.

If you break a bone, it's pretty clear that there are three or four different types of ways that you can fracture a bone. And there are three to four agreed upon ways to heal that bone. And we have a pretty good idea about how long it's going to take to heal it. When somebody has myalgic encephalitis or long COVID, it's unique.

And how your body expresses the illness is different and what it is that got you there is different and what it is that you need to get out is different. 

Mary Lee: Okay. First of all, chronic fatigue is not the same as saying you're anemic. Correct. Because that's related to more of the blood, your iron levels.

You can distinguish between that but I'm really impressed with what you said about when it comes to a fracture or break. Agreed upon practices, but it seems to me that medical community is not quite there on agreed upon to address chronic critique and long COVID. Correct. And so we're hearing about long COVID clinics popping up.

And this is what prompted me to look into this a little bit deeper and better understand. And it was Dr. Louise Newsom out of the UK who also addresses it and saying, we're not properly treating or addressing menopause because sometimes it's overshadowed by long COVID. We said, as you said, the the nomenclature CFS, ME and long COVID are very much similar, but showing up uniquely different.

Now let's talk about how you add on the unique symptoms of menopause. Of course, they show up very differently with a woman. So now you have Somebody who's suffering chronic fatigue and or long gone through long COVID or still in non 

COVID. 

Mary Lee: and then it's happening in their menopausal years, because a lot of people who are actually in the long COVID are right around that age, average age of 43.

Well, bingo. That is, that is. Almost right in the middle of the average woman going through her 10, 12 year perimenopause 

Jenny Tukenkian: So when I'm talking with somebody who has these symptoms, there are five different root causes that I'm ruling in and ruling out. And somebody may have one, two, three or all five of those.

Root causes. The first root cause is what I call the gateway root cause. It's the hormone triangle. It is that adrenal gland thyroid and ovary for female testy for male. That triangle is always working in harmony and balance through your body. If one of them is dysregulated, the other ones will go up, regulate or down, regulate to balance out.

A classic situation here is actually. Women who are super successful, have kids, have a job, working all the time, doing everything for everybody in their 20s, 30s, and 40s, and they're adrenally stressed. Their hypothalamic pituitary axis is out of balance. They're either high cortisol or low cortisol, or their cortisol dysregulated, as in they have high cortisol at nighttime.

So they may be tired all day, and then they go to get to bed and bing, they can't sleep because they're Their circadian rhythm is flipped and they have high cortisol at nighttime. There can be lots of different kinds of patterns that can happen here. This is very classic. And then you go into perimenopause where the ovaries are naturally supposed to slow down their production.

Some of the, some of the things that the ovaries produced, the adrenal gland starts to take over and the, adrenal gland and the thyroid have to take on more because the ovary is retiring and it's in its position. And if the adrenal gland has been stressed all this time, if that whole system has been out of balance, then Often what happens is the thyroid goes, Oh, I need to slow this ship down.

This ship is going too fast. We don't have the energy for this. We don't have the ability to do this. And so the so the thyroid starts to down regulate, it starts to drive at a lower RPM. If you will, and then women, that's where you get this peri or postmenopausal hypothyroid can, can be a possibility here in this situation, or just a subtle, it may not be technically, it may not show up on labs as being a hypothyroid, but that's what's happening is the system is trying to protect itself.

And I have been preaching this for a long time to women in their twenties and thirties, hoping that they can be smarter and better than I was in terms of taking care of my body and balancing out my life and safety. sleeping and managing my stress better so that you can be healthier and stronger going through perimenopause.

That's just the gateway. That's the number one root cause and that's a gateway root cause. And I agree with you that estrogen is a protective estrogen and progestin. But progesterone are both protective in their own ways. They both function as anti inflammatories in the body, the estrogen. So women who are going through perimenopause or menopause or postmenopausal are at risk for all kinds of such of health conditions, including the aggravation of long COVID or the things that trigger long COVID.

So one of the other root causes are chronic infections that And these infections can get reactivated. So people who have who a lot of people who have long COVID or chronic fatigue syndrome, it's a reactivated virus that they may have had as a kid. They may have had just a viral illness for a week or two.

That virus went dormant. It's living inside of the cells. It's just hanging out at a low level. You have a stress. Like menopause or the sleep deprivation from your hormones going off and you can get an activation of that Epstein Barr virus or that herpes six virus or that cytomegalovirus. Any of those viruses will reactivate at a time of stress.

Classically motor vehicle accidents, pregnancies, divorces, again, or perimenopause. I was able to completely heal from my chronic fatigue the first time and was 150 percent better, full energy, worked 17 hour days, had another kid, ran clinics and taught at the naturopathic college. I ended up get crashing again and had an injury, severe pain, sleep deprivation.

And then I was in perimenopause. And that perimenopause was definitely part of the thing that made it so that my body was very vulnerable to crashing super fast. because I didn't have any of those natural anti inflammatories in me to mitigate that inflammation. So you can, so the second thing is you can have those chronic viruses that can get reactivated.

The third piece is looking at toxic load. A lot of us have heavy metals in us. If you have any osteoporosis, those metals are getting released as your bone breaks down, you're the lead from breathing and fumes from car exhaust. The mercury from the air or from dental fillings, all of those things are in the bones and they get released and they start to circulate in the body.

Glyphosates from the foods that we eat. There are all these toxins that are in the air and not as a thing to make you scared, but just to make you aware in terms of empowerment. This can be something that you can take care of. You can detoxify and you can start removing some of these things and it can really improve your health.

The fourth root cause is looking at mitochondrial dysfunction. Mitochondria are inside of our cells and they are the powerhouses for the cells. They also have a huge impact on hormones and the immune system. And we're beginning to understand more and more the importance of this mitochondria to function well and how they interact in different phases of life.

When you talked about the brain fog you were experiencing, We had long Covid and going through menopause and a lot of us have had with illness with lunk Evett with magic encephalitis with perimenopause with pregnancy. That's literally brain inflammation and that's the mitochondria not functioning as well in the brain.

When you have that fatigue in your muscles, that's the mitochondria not functioning well. When you have cardiovascular problems that's the mitochondria not functioning well. The mitochondria have fatigue. Five or six very important jobs, and they're all essential for life. If our mitochondria are destroyed, we live three seconds.

That's how essential they are to life. Like we have to have the mitochondria in our cells. And the mitochondria are extremely vulnerable. The, these root causes interact. The viruses, a lot of the viruses will take over the energy production in the mitochondria. So if you have a reactivated Epstein Barr virus.

It literally shifts the sugar production of the cells inside your mitochondria to feed the Epstein Barr virus rather than you. So that's, and it literally would do that. They also put on these little immune shields and this is what COVID was really good at. It was really good at hiding and evading the immune system.

You've probably heard that. And that's partly, it's doing that inside the mind. It's like saying, no, I'm not here. I'm not here. And so it can go into your cells. When I got when I got COVID, my body was Bonding extremely well. And then I had this incredible experience on day nine where it was like I could just tell that it was like the death star was going down and sent out a million drones, and they all went into my mitochondria and overnight I went from having incredible health and vitality to just being just exactly.

Exhausted. It was crazy to feel it. And I, and I, and there's for a lot of people with long COVID, there is an autoimmune thing that is beginning to happen inside the mitochondria that we're now aware of that creates this chronic inflammatory cycle. The other thing with the mitochondria in terms of connecting with other root causes is those heavy metals that I was talking about, the The mercury, the lead, those glyphosates, the other toxin is mycotoxins from molds.

That's another thing that we need to look for and be sure there isn't mycotoxin or molds in your body or your environment. Those also go into the mitochondria and they alter the functioning of that mitochondria. So all of those, the mitochondria is very, very vulnerable and susceptible to all of those root causes impacting it.

So you can begin to see how they interact with each other. 

The fifth root cause is the limbic emotional brain. The limbic brain is the emotional center in the brain. That's always surveying for safety and danger. And it does this our whole lifetime. And it connects to the body through the vagus nerve.

And the vagus nerve has always been there. Picking up information from your gut. Do you have dysbiosis? Do you have irritable bowel syndrome? Do you have inflammation in your body? If you do, it's sending up a message to your limbic brain that, we're not doing so great down there.

We're not really safe. If you layer that on with. subconscious paths of trauma from childhood that hasn't been resolved from this from your 20s from your 30s start layering  that on that kind of the body's going, I'm not something's not so great, then you layer on these stories that haven't come into consciousness and haven't been resolved and processed, then you end up getting The limbic brain basically saying we are not safe and it sends out signals to the rest of the body, including the mitochondria and it slows things down the mitochondria puts the body into this hiding protective state in somatic.

Body work language. This is going from, it puts people into a dorsal state where you basically want to hide. It's telling your body, it's not safe out there. You got to leave, you got to go back in your cave and I'm going to increase your fatigue and increase your pain until you listen to me and go away because it's dangerous.

And that's all I can tell you. So there's all of these different pieces that can be interacting in somebody. And leading them, their body to become extremely dysregulated and, and it become a downward slope and cycle, unless you become conscious of what it is that, which root causes impacting you and start taking steps to stop it.

Mary Lee: Unbelievable. I am taking notes. big takeaways for me. And we're going to unpack this. I have a feeling that a lot of the listeners right around now are saying, okay, my god, I had I had mercury fillings because I was born in the 60s and 70s and that's what we did so I've got a mouthful mercury or I live in a damp climate, whether it's in the UK or here on Vancouver Island very damp in the winter. We're constantly cleaning black molds in our windowsills. I'm thinking now people say , yeah, I have going right through menopause. Estrogen is flying off the cliff edge. And of course it has an, an immuno-modulatory property in which it, it helps the body fight infection. So you have all these things going on and I can just see people checking.

Yep. Root cause number one, two, three, four, and five. I'm doomed. Yep. But it's not all doom and gloom. This is where the role of Dr. Jenny and her young childhood scientist doctor who is creating concoctions as a young child and counseling people has stepped up and saidthere's a way to address this.

I would really like to start looking at some of that. From a functional medicine perspective and as a naturopath, now that we become a consciously awake of, the messaging that's going on in the body. And this really speaks to, the gut brain connection the gut, sending messages to the rest of the body, which is overcompensating and spiraling us into this even worse condition.

Okay. But when we become consciously aware and understand that all these little messaging are going on in the body, menopausal women or everybody for that matter, but menopausal women, you are still in control. You're in the driver's seat. Let's talk about what we can do. 

Jenny Tukenkian: Absolutely. You are.And that's the thing, no matter what your body is going through, it is, there is a way for you to begin to understand and decode what it is saying to you and understand what the next best step is for you to take. And It can feel overwhelming when you hear this long list. And I want you to understand that even if for people who have all five root causes, there's going to be a root under the root, there's going to be one of those that if you address that first, it's going to start having cascading impact on the other root causes.

The key is beginning to understand which of the first root causes you need to address first.  The second thing I would say is that there are. Health foundations that are essential to address and no matter what treatment you're doing, conventional, natural, even doing, quote, unquote, nothing, getting these health foundations.

In order, paying attention to them makes a huge difference in terms of allowing the body to get itself back into balance. And these are things that I know that we've, you've talked about on the show before with, with everyone here, things like sleep and rhythm, digestion, detoxification, movement, and breath mindset and spirit.

And then the fifth one that I've added in since the pandemic, which is connection, connection to yourself, to your higher self, to your community. What is it that makes you feel alive? And as a human being, right, we all experienced the power of not having that and how devastating that is to us as human beings, how do we bring that connection back in so we can feel whole attending to those root to those health foundations is essential for healing.

So what I invite you to do if you, if you're struggling with your energy and you're wondering, do I, gosh, do I have myalgic encephalitis or do I have menopause or do I have both? Do I have long COVID? What is this is start looking at, look at those health foundations. Those five health foundations.

You can go back and re listen to this and listen to those five health foundations and score yourself zero to five, five being great, zero being low. 

Choose one that you need to work on now. Just choose one. Don't choose three, choose one. If it's sleep, work on your sleep. If it's digestion, work on your digestion.

If it's mindset, work on that. And focus on that for a few months. These are literally your health foundations. The stronger they are, the stronger you are. And the more resilient you're going to be. The stronger your foundation, the more resilient. Just like the buildings. Those with strong foundations can withstand the high winds and the changes through time.

Those without a strong foundation get blown over in a tornado. That's the same thing for you. And then in terms of the root causes Uncovering which root cause is the most important for you to address now, when I'm working with people, we need to figure out which health foundation they need to address, and which root cause they need to address first, and then the second step is figuring out which remedies actually work well with your body, because there isn't a protocol to treat it.

Myalgic encephalitis, long COVID, or even menopause for that matter. There's nothing that, there's no one size fits all in medicine. You are a unique being and so part of the empowering you to become empowered in your own health care is you understanding when something works for you and when it doesn't.

So part of what When I'm working with people is we're doing is we are trialing and erroring different treatments because I want to know what's going to work for you. I have some patients who do really well with energetic medicine and other who need heavy hitting pharmaceuticals or nutraceuticals. And it so just depends or some combination of them and learning how to listen to your body as you go through different stages of your life is really key to feeling more empowered in your own self care.

Mary Lee: I love that. It's, it's like a form of triage, really. Right. But it's not letting an outside system, like your doctor or your pharmacist, Or whomever to come parachuting in and saying, you need to do this, you need SSRIs, you're just depressed. It's a matter of honing in, listening in, being aware and, and literally just taking stock of what's happening in the body.

And I love that you said. You decide which one is most important for you now. I'm sure it's still a lot of people saying, but I, I just, I don't know. And when I work with my clients as a menopause doula, I, I asked them that very same question. I said, okay, here's the four pillars. I like number five, but with a connection, nutrition, movement, sleep, stress of all those, which one do you feel needs the most attention?

Right. And this is where that's. the spiritual body comes in. Women are wise. Yes. You have to lean into that intuition. 

Jenny Tukenkian: Yes. 

Mary Lee: Yes. Yes. Yes. And really think about this, which one will bring me back. That feel good sensation or that quality of life that I, I, which one, which one brings me back to me. Right. Oh, right.

Oh, I could just cry. This is so beautiful. Oh, it's so true. Okay. I'm glad that you didn't mention the pharmaceuticals. Because I, that was my next question of how much of a role does pharmaceuticals play? And of course they do have a very important role and, and we understand that. And then how much can we say, you know what, maybe I don't need this.

Maybe I just have to understand that the power of being in nature and meditation, mindfulness work can really down regulate. My nervous drive. And I don't need to take a pill to do that. So that is where that discernment, I mean, we instinctively know what we need to take care of, but then it takes a level of discernment to decide which medical tool, if you will, or who on my medical team needs to come in first.

Right. Right. Exactly. So this is what, when you're working with your patients, for example, how do you help them make that decision they've decided, okay, Dr. Jenny, I really need to work on my sleep because I know that overall, if I'm not getting good quality sleep, it's cascading effect on everything else.

How do you help them decide then, okay, here's the tools to put in place. Right. 

Jenny Tukenkian: So the people that really succeed in this work, the people who see the biggest shifts are the people who are interested in actually doing the work that it takes to be in conversation with their guide, with you, with me, and be in conversation about what is going on with them.

And the person that's motivated enough to be part of the journey and to be curious, the curious explorer to be like, okay, well, what happens if I do this? And then I'm going to go back and I'm going to talk to Dr. Jenny and let her know. And then if it's, if the news is good, great. But if it's not, we're going to have another conversation and course correct and move on and willing to be part of that process.

Those are the people that are successful in this work. And those are the ones that I bring on to work with me. So within that, how do we decide if you just need to go on some amazing meditation retreat in the woods versus you need to go on to a pharmaceutical? It depends a lot on. What got you into this situation and what you're ready for right now?

The answer to that question is not the same for everyone. And some people, their bodies really just need to become regulated. And we just really have to work on basic lifestyle things to get their system to be back regulated. And they need to have their nervous system and their emotional system understand that they're safe.

That they're safe to slow down. They're safe to calm down. That it's safe to not do. I was in our, we were in a group program yesterday, having amazing conversation with all these incredible women who are all struggling with these conditions and healing from them. And we talked about to rest is courageous.

These are long distance runners who have, who are, who COVID and to rest is courageous. It's, it's heroic to allow myself to take a nap in the day. That's heroic to schedule it in is heroic. In terms of pharmaceuticals, it's been interesting in my journey, because as you can tell from my early childhood story, I was very much into natural medicine.

I didn't, I didn't take medications and was very not interested in doing them at all. And honestly, The more and the longer that I practice and the more confident I've become in the work that I know and working with patients, I've actually become more comfortable using a couple of different pharmaceuticals in certain situations.

There are times when for certain, some people in some situations, that's exactly the tool and the medicine that needs to be used at this time with understanding that the power is not in that pill. The power to heal is still with inside of you. We are using that. That pill or that as a tool or a bridge right now, because it's the most efficient way to get you to your goal.

And that's, and again, it's highly individualized. I have many, many, many people I've worked with over the years who we've, I've never prescribed a single prescription medication for them. And they've come off once that they're on other people. We, I have prescribed a few different medications at times when it's necessary.

Mary Lee: Okay, so it would be akin to you've got a big, massive open wound and it's bleeding and gushing the first thing you need to do again back into the idea of triage is to stick that band aid or that compression on it and stop the bleeding and sometimes stopping the bleeding just might mean a pill. Yeah, but it's not forever. But I do like the idea, getting back to what you said earlier on in our conversation about get back to your foundation and then getting that nervous system in check, getting that emotional system in check and, and telling yourself safety. that's the root chakra is that I am safe.

Right. I am secure. Mm hmm. I belong. Yes. that's what I like to tell clients too, even when they show up for say, how's things going? And then I sit there and take stock and listen, and then you start to see the emotion starting to go and the nervous drive.

And I said, okay, stop. Place your hands on your heart, take a deep breath. And then immediately after you down regulate the nervous system, you have the capacity. It's as though the energy has shifted that energy almost to lift and go back right up to our third eye where our instincts are.

And we can start looking at things from a more objective. I always say don't absorb, observe what's happening. Love that. Oh, so powerful. What you have shared. we literally could talk for hours, just on the hypothalamus pituitary adrenal axis, the role of estrogen and progesterone.

Right. But on that note, in my solo episode about long COVID, I do make a case and I'm not advocating for one or the other, because again, the woman is in control. She gets to decide. And the goal is ultimately to enter into shared decision making with her healthcare team, the role of HRT, or menopause hormone therapy.

let's. Just address that in terms of helping woman, through our menopausal journey, the loss of estrogen to go on HRT MHT to give back that power in terms of what the role that those important sex hormones play in the body.

And does it help when it comes to things like fighting these infections 

Jenny Tukenkian: feel like this is a really big question. And I think that. And I, I hold back from saying and making any blanket statement about every woman should go on some sort of hormone replacement therapy because I don't believe that's true. I have seen. Right. 

A lot of women sail through perimenopause and menopause. It is a normal thing. It's supposed to be a natural process and part of life. And we see women in, there are studies of, on longevity and you look at cultures, more traditional cultures. And, Men and women are living into their 90s and 100s. They're still having great sexual relationships. They're viewed as the elders. Their brains are working beautifully. Everybody comes to them for big financial discussions and decision making.

And when we start looking at What is happening in those cultures that allows this so that we can age normally and healthfully, we can begin to get some clues as to what we really need to be doing community eating together, having a wide microbiome in terms of living with animals. Things that you would be surprised to find out about that get abused are, and I don't advocate in this culture are things like alcohol and nicotine use, but they are part of the studies of these things, but it's part of how are they used.

The alcohol is drunk in moderation. In relaxing environments where there's lots of conversation or music, which helps regulate the nervous system and increases your secretory IGA, which is immune globulin in your gut and all of your mucous membranes. You start looking at nicotine used in a traditional way.

You have a connection with nature. You have a respect, you have a connection to spirit. It's used as a very medicinal and ritualistic medicine and herbal plant in that place. And it also has features where it can help decrease some inflammation in the brain used in certain ways.

And so, we can say that. aging healthily is normal. That's normal. What we're doing is abnormal. Why is it abnormal? It's abnormal because of how we've chosen to live our life in this culture over the past decades. And those of us who are in our fifties and sixties now have had the brunt of this craziness in terms of the pollutants, the plastics, the, the things, the xenobiotics, the things that impact our, our hormonal system.

So should you then just because we made all these things happen in our culture that have made it challenging for our bodies to be normal, should we then just take a hormone to, to fill up a hole that was created from an overactive stress response from toxins in the cells from the body, not be able to have a regular rhythm.

What are we doing there? So again, I think there is a place for that. And I, I myself have used hormones at different times for myself and for my clients. I get concerned about it being used as a panacea for everybody. Like every woman should be on hormones and every man should be on hormones forever because those are powerful hormones and they have a cascading influence in the way that that is.

I have to say that I have been in this unique position having been trained in naturopathic medical school in the 90s, when we were studied, we were trained by the best of the best who are out there in terms of bioidentical hormones, when people didn't even know what bioidenticals were. And we were studying the microbiome when people didn't think the gut had anything to do with health.

And so we were taught the safety of doing bioidentical hormones and the dangers of things like progestins and high doses of estrogen for women who are just, given it. And then we had the study that came out a few years ago. And then there's the opposite where, Oh, nobody should be on HRT.

It's incredibly dangerous. Everybody should go off of it. All of you women stop. And then I'm still sitting here with the same information I originally had. Wait a second, bioidentical hormones, where you can get them compounded at a unique dose for the client based on what they need right now. There's still something here.

I was still prescribing during that whole time when everybody else wasn't because It's the right medicine at the right time for the right person, for as long as they need it, and for no longer. That's, it's unique, it's personalized medicine, and I think we have to be smart about this, and I feel like my fear is that I'm seeing the pendulum swing back to, everybody needs to go on HRT without really thinking about it.

What do you really need? Do you really need the hormones or do you need to change your diet and start breathing and do something else? Or do you have, I know your, your concern is that people who have menopause are being labeled as having long COVID or myalgic encephalitis and their menopause is being ignored.

I see it as all the same. There's fatigue. What are the root causes of fatigue? Is there a hormone imbalance that we need to address there? My concern is that people are saying, I'm tired. I need HRT. They get HRT and they're not getting their chronic viral infection reactivated infection looked at.

They're not getting the toxic load taken care of. They're not working on their gut health or their liver detoxification. They're blocking up their liver because they're getting more hormones that now have to be broken down by that liver. So you can begin to see why there's not one size that fits all and how I'm not willing to jump in and say, yes.

We need to do hormone replacement to avoid getting long COVID. That said, I totally agree that the, the hormones are anti inflammatories and they do help with Modulating the immune system. The question is for you, who's listening, what does your body need right now? Tap into that wisdom that we're talking about.

Tap into that wisdom. What does your body need right now? What action do you need to take to get the support so that your being can live in harmony? 

Mary Lee: That is absolutely fantastic. Personalized medicine, individualized approach. it's not a one size fits all because we are a very complex machine and our symptoms coupled with the other infections that might be going on, in the body.

It's complex, it's nuanced, and it takes a lot of internal work. but I think it really begins with getting to know who we are. And I like what you said to rest is courageous. And as Brene Brown says, it takes courage to be vulnerable, by not being busy and sitting still, we feel vulnerable.

Right. I honestly believe that menopause is a gift. To invite women to step in that place of stillness. Yes. 

Jenny Tukenkian: Yes. 

Mary Lee: Yes. And just, and listen and rest. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And, and the, the answers that wisdom will come, but it takes a community. 

Let's not downplay the importance of getting out of our bubble. Absolutely. Absolutely. And the podcasting community is such a way that we can do that. 

Jenny Tukenkian: Yes, it is. 

Mary Lee: Dr. Jenny. Thank you for being here with me on all things menopausal and sharing your magic, your journey, your sage wisdom.

I'm sure the listeners saying, okay, I want to work with her. I need her. So let's tell her listeners where they can find you. 

Jenny Tukenkian: The best place to find me is my website at dr. Jenny's thinking. com. And I also have a quiz on there. If you're curious about your root cause, there's a quiz on there where you can go through and I lead you through the algorithm I use. It's in my practice to see what your root causes might be that might be leading to your low energy. 

Mary Lee: Fantastic. We'll get that all in the show notes. I'm going to go do this quiz right now. 

 One really quick last thing. What can our listeners do right now in this moment, just to manage something that might be stressing them out physically, mentally, what can they do to gain back their power? Oh, such a good question.

Jenny Tukenkian: I'm going to share two things that I do when I am feeling like I am stressed out, lost my center, feeling freaked out. And one of them is I find my breath because your breath is able to really shift your consciousness into a different state. And so I exhale and then I breathe.

Inhale and I exhale for twice as long as I inhale. And just even doing that four times can have a huge difference on shifting your state. And if you want to take that, and sometimes I take it to the next level where I do what they do with in heart math, where I focus energy in my heart and I just breathe into my heart space.

And then breathe in a feeling of love or compassion. If I'm having a hard time finding that for myself, I focus on my dog or my kids or something that's easy for me to love. And I just focus love and compassion for that and let that energy roll through my being. And then soon I find I'm back in that place where I'm in coherence.

So what you were talking about, Mary Lee, about that, that heart. Being able to be a good heart leader at that point. I'm then a good heart leader for my own being, right? No longer lost. The second thing that I love doing is this quick shift. I call it a quick shift. If I notice I'm, I'm feeling stressed or anxious.

I can just quickly look around the room and I do that right now. Look around the room. What catches my eye as being beautiful. And I'm seeing this vase of flowers. I have one behind me. I have one in front of me and I can see this flower. And I can see the beautiful pink rose, and I can just focus on that beauty and allow that experience of that beauty to fill me.

And then again, that shifts my whole energy field very quickly. So those are two things that I use all the time throughout my day, driving, sitting, whatever it is that I'm doing to shift my energy so that I can be in a more whole state. 

Mary Lee: So beautiful. I was admiring those big bouquet of flowers behind you too.

The sunflower just popping out. There's actually science behind how powerful that flowers are for our mental and physical health. This has been delightful. Thank you for sharing those key tips and tricks and hacks that we can do right now in the moment to shift ourselves out of panic into calm rest digest.

Delightful to have you here. Thank you. 

Thank you so much for having me.

Mary Lee: Truly an enlightening episode with. Dr. Jenny. Her insights and experiences have opened. And my eyes and I hope yours too. To the intricacy. Cassie's of menopausal health. Chronic fatigue. And long covet. You know, when I had recorded my. Solo episode. Along COVID. Coming out of it. 

I. I really felt this difference in my body. From when I first got COVID during. During the COVID years. Something had shifted and I knew. It had to do with the hormone fluctuations. And because I was at a later stage in perimenopause. Menopause myself. But when Dr. Jenny expire. Explained. How. Viruses. Can be reactivated. An infection. Had been stored in her body from childhood. Perhaps. And then a stress. Environmental stress, uh, trauma. And let's face. At menopause as a stress can reactivate that virus.

That really sent a message home to me. About the concept, the Arab Vedic philosophy. That. Menopause is the time for the great reveal. And so things that. We didn't deal with in the past. Now is the time to deal with it. And Dr. Jenny explains it. So, cleverly and yet so simple. By addressing the five root cause of chronic fatigue, fatigue, and illness.

But the point that stands out the most. which I would say is my biggest takeaway. Is her view on the importance of personalized medicine and the thoughtful. Full use of pharmaceuticals and natural remedies tailored. To the individual's unique needs. we can't just. I rely on one or the other. We have to really. Understand our bodies from holistic perspective. The emotional, the physical, the mental, and of course the. A spiritual health. Of our bodies. And I. I really love the fact that she underscores the importance. Of community connection. Which is exactly why I created this podcast to share these stories of. Of expertise. Relatable stories from experts in the field of. Of woman's health. So that you can have an array of options. To choose from and to think about for managing your health and your menopausal symptoms. 

Just as a side note, on connection and community. This marks my 50th episode. And I'm preparing this episode to launch. Right after the Canadian Thanksgiving weekend, And I'm so. So grateful. I'm grateful to you. My listeners, and I'm grateful for. The guests that I've been able to sit down and speak with. And learn from. Over the past year. And it's been enriching for me in managing my menopause. Spas, but also. To gain this. Wisdom. And in part that wisdom onto you. Because another elevated. Principle that I say often. Is that menopause is also the. The age of wisdom. And this platform was designed So that we could have. Wisdom. To become wise.

 truly fascinating. To learn this from Dr. Jenny. That addressing these root causes holistically. And. When necessary through pharmaceuticals and understanding. Each of our individual's unique needs. Is key to effective treatment And recovery.

You can learn more about Dr. Jenny by visiting our website at drjennytufenkian.com. Until next time, take a moment to breathe, connect, and listen to what your body is telling you.

You are a wise woman. To Enhance your knowledge about The science of our hormones And symptom management, And a whole lot more, I'm offering. My first. Digital. Of course menopause intelligence. Which you can find at the link in the. Show notes. This is an eight module. Self. Paced. Course on. On all things menopausal. Learning. About the science of our hormones, female. Anatomy as we age. To how we can ground down. Connect with who we are. And where we. I want to go inner menopausal years and beyond. 

 If you want to learn more. you can always book eight. Free consultation with me to discuss one-on-one coaching needs. My digital course offering or how you can bring menopause. education presentations and webinars into your workplace To help. organizations become. menopause champions and to help facilitate the development of policy. Policies for inclusivity for women affected by menopause. 

Thank you for tuning in to another insightful episode of All Things Menopausal. If you enjoyed today's episode and want to stay connected, be sure to follow me on Instagram for tips and updates. For even more support and community, Join our Facebook group, personal and universal, where we share experiences, and empower each other through the transformative journey.

If you found value in today's episode, please consider leaving a review Your feedback helps reach more women who can benefit from these conversations. Okay, my lovelies until next time stay empowered, stay informed and embrace the beauty of your menopausal journey. Remember midlife should be the best life and it will be.

Namaste.